The Comedy Couch

 LOUIS CK - September 29, 2004

GUY MACPHERSON: You grew up in Boston, right?

GM: And where do you live now?
LCK: I live temporarily in Los Angeles. My real home
is New York.

GM: We've seen you for years on all the talk shows,
but before that, you were behind the scenes, first as
a writer on Conan, then Letterman, then Chris Rock.
LCK: That's right.

GM: But you started out as a standup, right?
LCK: I started out as a standup, yes.

GM: Do you think of yourself primarily as a comic or
LCK: I don't really ever choose one over the other.
I've been doing standup longer, though. I've been
doing it for almost 20 years now. And I've never
stopped doing it. TV writing is something I've been
more visible at because of the shows I've worked on
and getting an Emmy and stuff. I guess the two things
I really want to do more than anything are films and

GM: Directing or acting...?
LCK: Writing and directing. And that's a harder gig to
get. I've only done two of those. And standup I can do
a lot of, but it doesn't pay the bills as well because
I've got a family. So TV's always been right down the
middle. But not I also want to combine standup with
television and do my own show, so that's sort of where
I'm headed.

GM: You want to have it all, don't you?
LCK: Well, sure. Those are the goals, and in the
meantime I'm just kinda screwing around.

GM: On your website -- which I love, by the way -- you
said it was always a dream of yours to be on the
Letterman show before you were actually on.
LCK: Oh yeah, yeah.

GM: It must have been surreal for you not only to
perform, but then to be asked to join the writing
staff. What was that like?
LCK: Well, joining the writing staff was not as big a
deal to me because I had written on Conan for two
years and had the huge experience of putting a show on
the air. I was there for six months before Conan went
on the air. And the writers on Conan were given a huge
amount of power over the show. So really, that was a
great experience. But I was kind of burnt on TV
writing by the time I got to Letterman. I really was
dying to do the show as a standup, then after I did
the show I met with Dave and he asked me to write on
the show. I kinda said yes because Dave was sitting
there asking me to my face and I kinda couldn't say

GM: How long did that last?
LCK: I was only there for about three months. It just
wasn't as much fun because the show was already set in
its ways and I was sort of hired to just kind of plug
into their system. And I was too kinda young and antsy
to do something like that. So I left after a few

GM: What was he like to work for?
LCK: Dave was kind of removed from the process a
little bit, and the writing. I only dealt with him
about once a week. But he was always cordial and nice.

GM: The big news a couple days ago was Conan's going
to take over from Leno in five years. What do you
think of that?
LCK: I think that's great. That'll be good for
everybody. I think Jay's probably happy to move on.
It's a very difficult thing to make that leap from
12:30 to 11:30, but I think Conan's the one guy who's
definitely smart enough to make it work. He's a very,
very, very bright guy.

GM: You talked about your movies. But you do a bunch
of short films, too. Why is that?
LCK: I haven't done short films in a while because
those are almost harder to do than features. Because
there's no reason to do 'em. So when I was younger it
was a lot easier to throw money together and make
those. But lately it's been harder.

GM: You said some people think short films are just
something you make becuse you can't make a feature
film. You said, "I reject that. I think a short film
is to a feature film as a short story is to a novel."
LCK: I think that's absolutely true. I mean,
artistically speaking. But the thing about film is it
has this inevitable practical side to it, which is
film costs money and it takes a lot of people to do.
You can't make a movie by yourself. So you have to
justify a film financially on some level. But
artistically shorts should be just as important. Just
like short stories are, obviously, very respected part
of literature. They're not just like, "Oh, you
couldn't write a novel?"

GM: Some people might say that.
LCK: I guess some would, but not to, like, J.D.
Salinger and his nine stories. I don't think anybody
would look at that like a minimum effort because he
couldn't get off his ass and write a book.

GM: Any new films in the works for you?
LCK: I've written a couple that I'm trying to get off
the ground and financed. It's always in film that you
got to try to make, like, 50 at once. It's usually a
50-to-zero ratio.

GM: 50-to-zero?!
LCK: Yeah, more often than not. But also last year I
did a TV pilot which I'm doing for HBO, so it's hard
for me to concentrate on film because it's sort of
gone by the wayside.

GM: Did you say you did a pilot for HBO?
LCK: I'm developing one now.

GM: Last year you had one on CBS, right?
LCK: I did one on CBS and now we're in the early
writing stages of the HBO pilot and I'm getting ready
for a standup special on HBO this year.

GM: I was going to ask if you feel you're a sitcom-y
guy, but HBO's a little different, isn't it?
LCK: Oh yeah. HBO's a whole other world.

GM: Freedom.
LCK: Oh yeah. Last year's pilot was CBS and that's
definitely an adjustment, you know, from what I do on
stage. But it was fun; I really enjoyed it. It was a
good process and experience to go and actually act in
a pilot. And the stakes are enormously higher for
network television, so the real experience that I'll
always take with me is being the star of a pilot for a
network and the huge amount of people who are
expecting millions of dollars to pour into their
accounts on these shows. So being able to be in that
environment and just act and try to be funny, and
pulling it off which I did, was a great, great
experience. It didn't get me a show, but in a way I'm
glad. I'll be glad if I get a show on HBO instead.

GM: So you were happy with the CBS project
LCK: Oh yeah, I was. But I can definitely do a much
better show on HBO. I can be a lot more honest. I
really think of HBO as like the Museum of Modern Art,
or something. Like the Met. It would be like instead
of working at a comedy club, working at, you know, the
Lincoln Center or something. Or Carnegie Hall. The
challenge isn't going to be can I make these people
understand my point of view or to make them friendly
to my non-network mentality. It's am I good enough to
have a show on HBO? Am I that good? And if I am, and
it works out, they'll have huge [mumbled] from having
already done a pilot. Under much higher stakes from
other people's point of view. Like financially and all
that kind of stuff. If you have a show on CBS, you can
make gajillions of dollars and be basically like one
of ten of the most famous people in America. That's
the stakes. But those aren't the stakes I'm really
interested in.

GM: What stakes are you interested in?
LCK: Just trying to do a show as good as it can be and
as good as the level at HBO. At HBO it's just a whole
other scale. It's are you this good? Is your sitcom
going to be as good as the Sopranos or as good as
Angels in America, or just all this shit that is so
inspiring. It's weird that that's alien, to me as a
guy that's worked for television, instead of like,
"Ah, we all know that we're good enough, but will the
network let us do the right show?"

GM: On HBO, they don't usually have audiences or
laughtracks on sitcoms. It's usually one camera.
LCK: No, they don't do anything in front of audiences.
So if I can get this on the air, I'll be the first one
to do it on HBO. I'm not the only one trying,
obviously. That's sort of their goal this year. But to
do a sitcom on HBO in front of a live audience, that's
a big deal. Because that stakes out a new territory on
HBO that doesn't even exist there. And therefore
doesn't exist anywhere else. To do show with HBO's
standards of freedom of speech and artistic freedom in
front of a live audience is the big dream.

GM: When do you hear about it?
LCK: Well, I'm developing it now. I'm writing it. The
development process is a kind of on-going series of
yellow and green lights. Sort of like the national
security colour code. If you write an outline and they
like it, then you go to the next level. They say go
write it. Then you write the pilot and you make
adjustments according to their notes. And somewhere
down the line, usually around December, they take all
the pilots that have been written -- this is the
schedule that networks do; I don't know that HBO will.
And never mind the times. But the big signposts are
you write this pilot, they read it and say yes, you
can shoot this pilot. The first hurdle is actually
getting to shoot the pilot. A huge amount of pilots
get written and never shot. I've written three myself
that were never shot.

GM: And one that was.
LCK: And one that was. So so far I'm a pretty good...
I'm about at somebody like Jorge Pasada's batting
average, .250. So then if they let you shoot the
pilot, you get to go put the pilot together. You gotta
go cast it and keep rewriting and rewriting, and then
you shoot the pilot. And then if they like the pilot,
they order some shows. They give you a series and put
you on the schedule. But even that's two steps. They
might order the shows and you can shoot six of them,
and they might never air. So you're not on television
until you're on television.

GM: I don't know about HBO, but I guess in judging
from what I see on the networks that quality isn't
always an indication of whether a show stays or goes.
LCK: No, definitely not. It's about testing. It's
about this process of polling data and market testing.
If they feel the show has potential to keep a certain
demographic, they'll keep the show on the air. And
there's a lot of shows that are considered really
great that just get pushed off because they're just
not performing well. It's really about performance.

GM: What happened with the Dana Carvey show, which I
never actually saw? But the writers on the show were
LCK: Yeah, but the ratings were dismal. People hated
the show.

GM: Really. And what did you think of it?
LCK: Um, I thought it was kind of a mish-mashy show.
It didn't have any guiding force behind it. It was
just kind of all this crazy shit. It was fun to work
on, but it was a hard show to do. But HBO's different,
though. HBO doesn't have any pressure from advertisers
and stuff like that. So they're just about whether
they want to keep it on or not. I think critical
acclaim wins you a lot of [mumbled] at HBO and they
like you. If you're getting good write-ups, they keep
you on, because they're sort of about overall prestige
rather than clear numbers. When a sitcom is on a
network, there's a blood... The numbers the next night
or while it's airing it's being scrutinized. As an
episode is airing, somebody's watching the
minute-to-minute ratings. And by the end of an episode
you could be in trouble. You could be doing great 15
minutes into an episode and then be cancelled by the
end of it. Just because that's how quickly the next
day's advertisers could go, "We're pulling off of that
show." Or whatever it is. But HBO doesn't have that
kind of pressure. It doesn't mean that they're fine
artists. But their pressure is more what's cool and
what's making them look good.

GM:As a writer who's worked on so many shows, when
you're working for these other people, as you have,
how do you decide which jokes are for the show and
which jokes are for you and your standup?
LCK: Mostly that doesn't come up because I've never
really written jokes for these guys that I've written
for. I wrote some of Conan's monologue stuff early on
but then we hired a real monologue staff. I've always
been more of a sketch writer. So sketches are just a
different deal. They're all different mediums for
humour. So it never really competes. There was one
time that I came up with an idea for a movie I was
writing with Chris Rock, and I put it in the script.
And then I tried it on stage and it really killed. So
I called him and said I need that back. (laughs) We
can't put that in the movie.

GM: The movie probably could have used it.
LCK: Well, it wasn't a movie you've seen. It doesn't
exist. So that I took and kept for my own.

GM: I love your website because you have so much
material on there. Lots of video and audio. Are you
afraid of too many people seeing your act, though, on
the net and then expecting something new when they
come and see you?
LCK: I'm trying to be a little more careful about it.
It's tricky because I did actually start thinking
about that. I get excited about shooting all these
live shows and sticking them right up there the next
day and giving people that kind of access. And it's
certainly cranked right up the visitorness... the
amount of visits I get. The video clips are a huge
boon to the site. But I did start to think, well,
geez. And then I started looking through old tapes of
the Conan appearances I've done and started to post
those on the front page.

GM: Because they've already been shown.
LCK: Yeah, and I've already made my money on those
jokes. But there's still a lot of people that come to
my site that don't have evidence... What I realized
was that people come to the site and read about stuff
about me, but how do they know... A lot of them don't
know who I am, so here's immediate evidence I can be
funny. And I might as well use old TV stuff rather
than brand new, actually still developing material
that's going to change. And also, right now I'm
working towards this big goal, the HBO special. It has
to be the best thing I ever did. All this material I'm
doing now is going to be compressed into a perfect
special, so to show it to people would be a little bit
stupid. So I started putting the Conan clips up front,
but now everybody seems to go directly to my...
because I can see where all my visitors go. They all
seem to go directly to the video clips page, which has
everything. And all the ones that have sort of
undeveloped weird material, those seem to get the
heaviest hits. Because I think those are the ones that
people post on news groups and stuff. I find more
links to those than to like the Conan ones. Although
the Conan set, the most recent one I did, that gets
the heaviest traffic by far.

GM: Is that the one where you're talking about your
LCK: Yeah.

GM: That's very funny.
LCK: So I don't know. I'm sort of torn. Some people
take it to a ridiculous degree. Some comedians are
really dumb. And I've had some of them asking me
advice about TV and they say, "I don't really know if
I want to go on Conan or the Tonight Show because then
that material will get over-exposed." Well, what's
your fucking goal? What are you doing? (laughs) Is
this a private...?

GM: "Just for my friends."
LCK: Yeah, exactly. You're crazy. So I dunno. It's a
challenge to keep new material... It makes you write
more, so I kind of... I dunno, I'll probably take some
down after a little while and put 'em back up and
shuffle the deck a little bit.

GM: Is it a standup special you're doing?
LCK: Yeah, it's going to be a standup special.

GM: And when's that coming out?
LCK: Don't know. What I've gotten at HBO is a
guarantee that I'm doing a standup special. And this
development deal. They're paying me to come up with
this half-hour and to do the half-hour special. Or
hour, I don't know which one it is yet. And then we'll
see what comes of it.

GM: The video clips on the site also give this great
progression of you as a comic, when you see the first
Letterman appearance in '95. And the jokes weren't
nearly as dark as they are now. Or was just because
you wanted to play it safe on your first show?
LCK: Definitely in the early TV appearances I already
had a lot of nasty shit in my act. But the difference
is that I've been doing dark stuff about family, and
people accept that more. I used to have a
schizophrenic act, where I'd do kind of clever stuff.
Silly, kind of esoteric jokes. And then I'd do this
really, really, really nasty humour about sex or
whatever the hell.

GM: Masturbating between the falling of the towers.
LCK: Yeah, that kind of shit. So I've always had those
two things and I used to try to be careful and set
them up like a pitcher sometimes on stage. Try to set
up the fastball with the slider and stuff like that.
So I sort of found a way to combine both kinds of
humour into one act. A big difference has come to mind
the last couple of years has been having a family. And
so now I'm putting that dark humour into stuff about
having a family. And I've found out remarkably that
people who really have kids, like soccer moms and
really domestic people, have a really dark sense of
humour. Because they're facing the real horror of
raising kids and being married. That's a very
difficult thing for everybody. I've done jokes like,
"Hey, now I understand the baby in the garbage thing.
It's not something I would do, but now I get it." And
I have, like, soccer moms going, "I love that joke!"
Because they empathize. They feel the same way. And I
can do that kind of humour, actually, without cursing
as much because it's already nasty enough without the
cursing. "My baby's crying like a little bitch for
half an hour." Parents find that kind of joke as a
relief. It makes them really happy. So I guess what
I'm saying is I've found a way to do my dark side of
humour but I'm not having to go find some weird
audience. It's got mainstream appeal.

GM: Has anyone ever come up and said, "You're an awful
LCK: Never. Never.It's a dark little national secret.
Because usually shows about families have to be really
sweet, and they have to be utopian and cute, sacchrine
and completely fake. Or you're being some young dude
with a skateboard acting cool. The only people that
get to curse or say irreverent things or be nasty are
like young folks that drive VWs and hang out with
their roommates. Whereas, I don't really care when
people like that are irreverent or nasty because why
wouldn't they be? They're in college, who gives a shit
what you think? Of course you think everything sucks
because you don't have any stakes in your life. You're
standing on your head. But when a father of four who's
been married for 18 years, "Fucking motherfucker!", I
really feel something, you know what I mean? Like, I
really go, "Goddamn, I know! It must be so hard!"

GM: How many kids do you have?
LCK: Just one. I've got one on the way, too.

GM: I have one on the way this week.
LCK: That's right.

GM: Do you have any advice for a dad-to-be like me?
LCK: This is your first kid?

GM: Yeah.
LCK: Nothing I can say. No way to simulate... Here's
the thing about it: It sucks on paper. If you write
down things you're going to have to do and the way
your life is going to change, there's just no way to
justify it. It's the dumbest thing in the world to do.

GM: You're not helping.
LCK: But it doesn't matter because you'll be happy to
do all of it. There's nothing going to be imposed on
you. You're going to completely, voluntarily change
your life in a way that if you could look in the
future and see it from now, you would say, "Why the
fuck would somebody do that to themselves?" But that's
how powerful a force it is to have a kid. And it isn't
like, "Oh, but they're so wonderful" and you're paid
off for every hard moment with them giving you a daisy
and saying "I love you, papa" -- although that
happens, and it's pretty great. It's just that it's so
important to you. It's such a big deal to have a kid
that it just changes your motivations. It changes

GM: That's encouraging.
LCK: Yeah, it is. It's great.

GM: You talk about the parents who love this material
of yours. Do you think audiences are becoming more
accepting of dark material than in the past?
LCK: I don't know if that's true because I think we
can sort of tell by how we vote in this country. We
keep regenerating as both kinds of person. It really
seems that we'll always be 43 percent crazy liberals
and 43 percent bizarrely conservative Republicans. And
then this sort of weird mish-mash in the middle. It
seems like that will always be the case. A lot of
times young people, they cringe at stuff. Also, people
reject dark humour for different reasons. Conservative
people reject it because they just have sort of a
Christian "don't talk like that" idea. But then the
left rejects because "oh, you're being offensive to
women or you're being offensive to homosexuals or
using off-colour humour. You're talking about race
which means you must be racist." You actually get in
more trouble from the left for free speech kind of
like wild ideas than you do from people on the right.
Which is weird.

GM: Just a knee-jerk reaction to it rather thinking
what it's about.
LCK: Years ago I did a show at UNH in New Hampshire. I
don't do college shows anymore, and this is why. I'm
doing a show and I did an old joke of mine where I
said, "I read that 80 percent of the people in New
York are minorities. Which is funny, because shouldn't
you not call them minorities when they get to 80
percent? Like you could take a white guy to Africa and
he'd be going, 'Look at all the minorities. I'm the
only majority.'" Whatever. So that was the joke. And I
was at UNH, the University of New Hampshire, and when
I got to the part where I said 80 percent of the
people in New York are minorities, people booed me.
Hissed. And I said, "What's the problem?" And someone
just said, "You're a racist." And I said, "Why am I
racist?" "Because you said minorities." And I asked
the whole audience, "Do you all agree that that makes
me a racist because I just mentioned minorities?" And
they all said yes.

GM: And you hadn't even got to the point yet.
LCK: No! So that's really what we're dealing with. You
know, I don't run into this trouble a lot because
generally I'm a pretty charming person and people like
me on stage so I get away with a lot. I can say
'cunt', 'nigger' and people don't really get bummed
out. (laughs)

GM: It's that likability.
LCK: They trust me with the words and they trust that
I'm not fucking with them and that I'm not trying to
get them to laugh at something that they shouldn't be
laughing at. You know what I mean? They trust that I'm
not trying to use humour as a weapon. They just sort
of know that we're all friends and I'm just fucking
with them. And that I'm being sincere when I say
certain stuff that sounds like maybe I'm trying to
fuck with them. You don't just sort of stand there and
say, "Fuck you, I'll say what I want. You're just a
faggot." You have to try to include people in your
ideas and reach out to them. That's, to me, the goal.

GM: And you do that bit about how great it is to be
LCK: Right, which is really a sincere honest idea. It
doesn't mean that I'm saying better than other people
because I'm white. I'm saying that being white is a
better circumstance.

GM: In fact, it's kind of a knock on society.
LCK: Right, it is. And people sometimes get really
squirrely when I do that bit. Although lately somehow,
some way I'm doing now and it's better. This is again
another reason why I shouldn't post too much on the
website because it gets nervous laughter. But in the
last couple of weeks that I've been doing it, like in
Minneapolis, which is a pretty decent snippet of
American audiences, and it really kills now. It's a
way better bit than whatever's on the website.

GM: You're doing it differently.
LCK: Yeah, it's just shaving different areas and
finding a way... I think it's also what I talk about
leading into it. It just works way better. So by the
time I get to the special, it will be a great bit. So
people are seeing it in early stages now. In a way, I
don't mind. I get, what? Like, 5000 visitors a week on
the website. And a lot of them are repeats. A lot of
people come back to see the stuff. So I kinda don't
mind giving a few people an insight into how it's all

GM: At this stage now, do you still get those gigs
from hell like you did in New Hampshire?
LCK: I don't have to, although now that I'm sort of in
training for this special, I'm really hitting the road
hard and heavy. But the trick is I can't really leave
my family that much. It's too painful for all of us
for me to be on the road as much. If I was single,
right now I'd be on my way to another city to work.
I'd be on the road every week. But I can't do that. So
where the bad gigs come in, is when I'm a week that I
have to be home, I have to find gigs within driving
distance. A lot fo the clubs in LA are really great,
but I can't play them every night. So I have to keep
reaching out. Last night I did some Irish pub where
the game's on and people were talking at the bar.
(laughs) But I needed the stage time. And if I need to
do an hour somewhere, I need to go to Ventura,
California, and do Hornblowers, which is actually not
a bad gig, but I'd certainly stay in bed if you gave
me the choice. But I need the time on stage.

GM: Is Last Comic Standing something that you'd ever
LCK: Not in a million years. I mean, you've gotta live
in a house with some guys. (laughs) It's not actually
the best comedians in the country. My hat's off to all
the guys that do it. There are a few things about it
that I love. Like that Jay London, who was in the
finals, now has a... Jay London has been trying really
hard to get work and respect as a comic for years. And
I love that guy. I think he's really funny. And now I
see he's playing Improvs and stuff. He's on the road.
And he was actually really scraping by in life. So
that alone redeems all of it. I read Jay Mohr saying
in the press that yes, these are actually the best
comis in the country. And that's offensive to me. He
knows that's not true. That's just a stupid thing to
say. It really is sort of a second-tier, kind of
amateur... Although there are a lot of guys that have
been doing it a long time, but they're not guys who
were in the hopper to do the next... You know what I
mean? They're not guys that are considered the best
comics. Did Todd Glass beat Chris Rock out? Come on.
But there's another one: Todd Glass makes me laugh
harder than almost anybody. Hilarious. But he didn't
rate. He didn't get very far. And also the people that
run it, Jay and Barry Katz, are not the most savoury
characters. They're silly people. I'm glad that
they're doing some good business, and I'm really happy
for all of the comics that are getting that exposure.
I think it's great. But it is distorted. People come
up to me in clubs and say, "You must have not gotten
on the show. What happened?" And I go, "Yup, too bad
for me." But I think it's offensive to say that
they're the best comics in the country. Because it's
just not true. Dave Attell and Mitch Hedberg and Marc
Maron and Chris Rock and Steven Wright? And Jesus,
there's millions of guys that would just sort of go,
"No, I'm not going to go live in a house with those
fellows." But a lot of the comics are funny. Rich Vos
makes me laugh a lot. Todd Glass, Jay London... That's
about it, really. A lot of them I just don't even
know. And some of them are funny but they're all sort
of undeveloped new acts with a long way to go.

GM: But they're all on network TV so they must be
LCK: Terrific. I hope they make what they can out of
it and the show takes them somewhere. But the only
problem I have with the show is Jay Mohr saying that
when I read that in the papers. I just go, come on,
man. He knows it's not true. And you know it's a
fudged, kind of fake contest. It's not even a
legitimate contest. The producers reserved the right
to change the votes according to what they think
should be on the show. That's not the way it's
presented. It's in the fine print. It's a false show.
It's a fake show.

GM: I saw Andy Kindler last year in Montreal at the
State of the Industry address saying that everytime an
audience is involved, the worst comic's going to win.
LCK: I disagree with Andy about that. In this last
round, they didn't even go with the audience. Dan
Naturman, who's very funny -- and everyone knows this
story -- notoriously got a standing ovation and was
dropped out of the line-up because the producers...
It's funny to read about it early in the scandal. They
said the producers have a right to change the votes
according to what they want the show to look like.
That's an honest, actually a legal and honest answer
to what happened. It's just gross. And it's not honest
to the audience because they put it in fine print. But
it is legal and it is the real truth. Now they say, in
later stuff they've written and stuff I've heard Jay
Mohr say, there's actually a second voting round by
unknown judges. It's a different way to say the same
thing. In other words, you go, "You guys like who won?
No, I don't. Okay, let's put somebody else in."

GM: If they had said that up front, and everybody knew
it and all the judges and the contestants, then fine.
LCK: To have a contest populated with people who
aren't really... I mean, some are good and some are
not good, but it's not the Olympics of comedy. And
then to rig the fucking thing and then to say in the
press you're showing everyone who the best comedians
in the country are, that's just all kind of Jay Mohr
and Barry Katz nonsense. But terrific for the guys.
It's kinda like "Hey, being white is great", for Jay
London and these guys, great, I am happy for the
comedians who get the exposure. But I hope the show
continues, I really do. I hope it keeps going so those
guys can keep getting on TV and getting work from it.

GM: You think it's good for standup?
LCK: I do think it is, actually, because people are
coming out to see comics a little more than they were.
But I don't necessarily think that that's due to Last
Comic Standing. I think Dave Chappelle and Chris Rock
and Dave Attell have been bringing people back to the
clubs. Those are great comics with their own TV shows
that have been cramming rooms full of fans who then
look in the Arts section and go, "Who else is coming?
Comedy's good." It didn't used to be considered good
at all. But these guys have shown an example of funny
stuff. So I more think those guys.

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